Adnan Oktar’s live talk with Ms. Rafif Jouejati, Syrian activist for Local Coordinating Committees in Syria and Director of Free-Syria and her activist friends
- Good day to our viewers. We are starting our conversation with Mr. Adnan Oktar. We have guests from Syria.
Oktar Babuna: We have distinguished guests from Syria. Activist Ms.Rafif JouejatiJouejati from Syria, Ms. DimaMoussa from Syria again. Welcome. Also their friend Mr. Matthew from the US.
Adnan Oktar: Welcome. You do us a great honor.
Rafif Jouejati: Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be with you.
Adnan Oktar: Do you know the subject matter? What do they do?
Oktar: Yes. Syrian activist Rafif JouejatiJouejatistrives against the Assad regime in Syria, to stop the bloodshed. They are raised in the US. They have their own organization. They are of Syrian origin, but from the US. And Mr. Matthew is from the US.
Adnan Oktar: The ladies are of Syrian origin.
Oktar: Yes. And the gentleman is American. Ms. Dima lives in Gaziantep. And you live in?
Rafif Jouejati: I live in Washington, D.C.
Oktar: The other one in Gaziantep. And Matthew lives in Chicago.
Adnan Oktar: Let them talk, let us start with the lady.
Oktar: You may start first.
Rafif Jouejati: You would like me to start first? I was expecting a question but if I am going to speak first, I would like for your audience and your followers to understand that the people of Syria are facing daily massacres committed by the Assad regime; to understand that the refugee crisis in Europe and Turkey is caused by the Assad regime; people are fleeing the barrel bombs that hit daily. The barrel bombs that are full of chlorine gas, metal, fuel, barrel bombs that kill indiscriminately. There is the calamity of human suffering in Syria and I believe that Syrians are appealing to the International Community to put a stop to the killing perpetrated by the Assad regime. I know that the current international narrative is to combat ISIS – the Islamic State. The current international narrative revolves around combatting and eliminating ISIS. And I understand that to be a global concern but I believe that the root cause of the problem in Syria is the regime of Bashar al Assad. And I believe that we cannot achieve a lasting solution in Syria unless we eliminate the root cause of the problem.
Adnan Oktar: What about if the nature of the regime were to change, would that do? If they abandoned the Ba’athist mindset and were compassionate and affectionate. What if Assad did away with the old team and he adopted a humane and loving policy with an entirely new team, would that be enough to save the situation?
Rafif Jouejati: The Syrian people went out in 2011 in peaceful protest to change the Baath system and to change almost five decades of extreme brutality under military dictatorship. So what the people of Syria have been asking for is regime change and they have been asking for a state grounded in the rule law; for a state in which human dignity is preserved and a state that respects the human rights. This is what we are looking for.
Adnan Oktar: I am not saying let us forgive the murderers in the regime. They must all be punished. But what if Assad were to remain in his position and we did away with the regime, removing the brutality of the Ba’athist regime in its entirety. What if they were moderate and modern and looked up to Europe, wanted to join with the EU and looked favorably at Turkey, even to the extent of desiring a federation? Or if they just altered their behavior such as to wish to work together, even without a full federation? On the condition that he remained in power? On the condition that his honor is preserved? Because the other way would trample his honor into the dust. We can eliminate all the concerns about his character; we can also eliminate the fierceness of the regime. We can have all the Ba’athists detained, all the killers, in other words. But we can set Assad aside and put him at the head of a reasonable, liberal center-right government. That is possible, it can be done. What do they think?
Rafif Jouejati: Of course every individual dreams of living in love and harmony and peace around the world; this is what people want. Everybody around the world wants their children to be safe, to go to school, to have enough to eat. These are normal human aspirations. Bashar al- Assad whether he is a puppet or the true head of the Assad regime is an executioner. He bears full accountability and responsibility for the destruction he has created in Syria.
Adnan Oktar: Of course, there is terrible violence. They have devastated Syria, and I am aware of that. I can see the horror. It is horrifying. So what do you want to do? What kind of rational solution might there be?
Rafif Jouejati: The solution with wisdom is to work with international partners to have the regime of Bashar al-Assad removed and face prosecution with honor. They can be prosecuted with honor. The solution in Syria is to remove this murderous regime to allow civilians to take over the government to retain as many regimes’ structures as possible provided they have no blood in their hands and to begin the very painful process of healing and rebuilding this country that has been destroyed by Bashar al - Assad and his regime.
Adnan Oktar: In my opinion, Assad is a prisoner. I think he has been taken captive and seized by a mafia organization. I think he has been made a prisoner by a secret state apparatus, and that he is being used a puppet. However, we need to talk to him for as a friend and get his side of things. Let us invite him to Turkey, in a safe environment, so he can say what is happening. If he says that he did it all, then there is nothing further to be said. In that case, what you say will be shown to be true.
The situation may like this: he might say that there is a secret state apparatus there that made him a prisoner, that he is normally against such things and would prefer a liberal, moderate kind of regime, and that he is not the kind of person to do all that. He may say he would like international powers to work together to eliminate that secret state apparatus and that he wants to continue serving [as president]. That would be a way out for him. If he said that, I think that would legitimize him. But if he admits that he issued all the orders, then you will be proved right, and that will change everything.
His testimony needs to be taken, not as a criminal, but in a friendly manner.
So who would you like to see instead? Give me a name, so we can concentrate on them.
Rafif Jouejati: I think part of the struggle for freedom is that we do not want after almost five decades of having an individual figure run a military dictatorship. I believe what the Syrian people are asking for is for a democratic form of government so it is not rest with one individual. It rests with representative groups, who have constituencies, who are bound by the rule of love, who are elected democratically; who can be changed when they fail to be in the service of the people. It is time for us and I believe as Syrians we have all said this before for almost five years; we do not want one puppet, one figurehead, one man. We want a nation that is governed by a government, not a mafia.
Adnan Oktar: That is true.
Rafif Jouejati: You said who can take over. I know that they are many transitional frameworks that have been created for Syria. These are Syrian transition frameworks by Syrians and I believe these are mature enough for us to resume control of our country and our government. We have a great many technocrats and diplomats and politicians who are ready to step in. In the current dysfunction of the Assad regime it is not difficult to replace people who have blood on their hands with civilians who are honorable and ready to serve the Syrian people. I think these groups that can take over with the support of the international community can effect a transition with much more positive results sooner instead of continuing the path of genocide.
Adnan Oktar: Will the regime have an ideology?
Rafif Jouejati: I am sure hopefully. I hope for Syria that there will be many ideologies. I hope that the people of Syria can adopt the ideology they choose and elect the representatives legitimately. We welcome the plurality of thought. We have had enough of almost fifty years of single party rule.
Adnan Oktar: Would that not lead to renewed fighting? I mean, would you want ISIL to take power?
Rafif Jouejati: No absolutely not, the Syrian people’s fight is against primarily Assad but also ISIS. And we believe that ISIS is a direct result of the Assad regime. What we are talking about is a post-Assad transition in which different political parties can exist and flourish and represent their constituencies.
Adnan Oktar: Do you know in which direction the people are leaning? I have no idea, so I would like to learn some things from you. Maybe one part of the populace would like a leftist administration, while others want a rightist or an Arab nationalist administration and others want a shariah model based on the Qur’an. Have you done any research into that?
Rafif Jouejati: Actually I do. My organization conducted a survey among more than 50 thousand Syrians in all parts of the country. And what the Syrian people want based on this survey is a secular state in which all citizens are equal. In any democratic country you have multiple parties. Of course there is always somebody who wants a sharia state. There is somebody who wants to be a communist, and there is somebody who wants to be socialist. I would hope that we would encourage that kind of plurality of thought. We want to have different groups, we want people to be free, to belong to whichever group choose or create a new one. They should have that freedom.
Adnan Oktar: I would like brief answers from you, so I can respond accordingly.
Would you want Syria to coalesce with Turkey as a federation? I think that would save the situation, which is why I ask.
Rafif Jouejati: In my mind I believe Syria will retain its independence. We are already occupied by Russia and Iran and Hezbollah. We need our independence. I think we can create an environment of excellent relations with Turkey. I think Syrians are grateful to Turkey for everything the Turkish people have done for us, but we must be free and independent.
Adnan Oktar: Federation would not mean a loss of independence. What would you say to a solution in which Turkey acts as a military guarantor, thus eliminating the danger of internal conflict or of a military coup? Of course, Syria would remain independent, but it could pull itself together quicker within a federation. Would you consider that so the economy could recover quicker within a militarily sound system?
Turkey could act as a guarantor in a federation and protect Syria in military terms, but it would still be independent, both internally and externally. What I mean by federation and by Turkey acting as a guarantor is that there would be no border between Turkey and Syria. That is important in commercial terms, if Syria is to recover quickly. That would also eliminate the possibility of a military intervention. It would also attract great wealth in terms of investment. What do you think? If they can say something specific I can reply in clearer terms.
Rafif Jouejati: I think it is not for me to speak about this type of scenario and I think if this were to be a political scenario that is proposed that it is a conversation to have with the transitional government of Syria after the removal of Bashar al-Assad. Of course everybody wants prosperity and peace and we can only hope for that.
Adnan Oktar: If there is a transitional formula that can stave off a disaster, I think it needs to be implemented at once. I think that Syrian intellectuals need to come up with a really good formula. Such a government is no good. If Syrian intellectuals can decide on something, that can be set in motion, otherwise Syria will become a Russian satellite state, like Afghanistan.
If it becomes dependent on Turkey that will make it independent. It is not independent now. I am not saying that Turkey should invade it; there must be no military occupation. It would be independent both internally and externally, with Turkey as a guarantor. But everything could calm down if Turkey were to step in with the permission of the Syrian government. Economically, Syria could recover very quickly. Three or five Turkish divisions could put an end to it.
Rafif Jouejati: So Turkey was not able to stop the barrel bombs and Turkey was not able to stop the regime of Bashar al-Assad. What makes you think that Turkey can guarantee safety for Syrian civilians if they have not done so yet? What makes us believe that this will happen?
Adnan Oktar: It could be settled if you agreed and if America agreed. If the Syrian people wanted Turkey to go into Syria and sort the matter out, that could represent a legal solution; otherwise it would resemble a minimally legal or illegal occupation, but this way, it would be legal. The United Nations must take a decision. Turkey can go in because there is a problem of development. Those buildings have to be rebuilt and roads have to be reconstructed. Syria cannot do that. All that is left is a country resembling a skeleton. It also has no military strength. Turkey is a humane and compassionate country, and a determined one when it comes to democracy. Syria will still be completely independent. When it returns to its former prosperity they can enjoy excellent bonds of brotherhood with Turkey.
Rafif Jouejati: That is a very very kind offer. I think again this is something for governments to discuss. I think right now Turkey would have a problem with Russia and Iran and Hezbollah and the French and the British and the Australians and every other member who has decided to begin bombing raids over Syria. So I think the path to this discussion is very far away. I think we need to see what is going to happen in the UN discussions taking place now. And I think above all we need to discuss this with the Syrian people.
Adnan Oktar: Russia is in a state of panic there. That does not suit Russia at all, so we need to concentrate on its bases there. We do not want the Russian bases to be done away with, either. You cannot tell them to pack up and go, but the best way of doing this is still for Syria to share common borders with Turkey. It is impossible for Russia to come from so far away and to rescue Syria; that is not possible. It is not something that can be resolved with tanks and guns. But Syria, with its lack of an army, has an urgent need for Turkish troops and military power. Turkey’s rebuilding an economically collapsed Syria would bring wealth both to Syria and Turkey
If you agree to that, we can speak to Assad about it. We can get Assad to accept it. Syria has virtually no army at the moment. It will be very difficult to create a new army, and it will be very weak. The Turkish Army would be just like a Syrian Army, and that would make things much easier. You can ask the other lady her opinion also.
- : I mean I agree with what Rafif Jouejati said. This is something that needs to be discussed at the government level and other steps need to be taken first before we can move into talking about something like this.
Adnan Oktar: Let me say that if you will agree with the Syrian opposition, we can convince Assad on this matter.
Assad must be given a small state around the area of Latakia. We will not just turn Assad over; we will not let him be hanged. If we do that, Russia will not go along with it, and my conscience will not allow me to, either. I never want anyone to be hanged, and I do not want the leading members of the regime to be killed. But they must be put on trial, and if they are sent to jail, then so be it; that is a different matter. But I do not want any killing. A statelet around Latakia can be set up with his own people.
Rafif Jouejati: There is very little nation remaining in Syria now. What you are talking about is a country that is being destroyed by the regime that claims to be the leader. It is a very simple case of crime and punishment in this case. The Syrian people cannot heal and justice will not be served if the regime is not prosecuted by the Syrian people, not by the Turks and not by the Russians and not by any other foreign entity that has an interest in Syria. This must be left for the Syrian people.
Adnan Oktar: That is technically right, democratically speaking, but there is no way of asking the people about it. The people are currently being killed. People are concerned for their own lives. We cannot put a polling booth up there and ask people what they think. The current climate is not appropriate. The environment is a violent one, so the issue has to be resolved from the top down. The people can be asked once a regime has been installed in that way. But the situation is an urgent one, and people are being wiped out.
Rafif Jouejati: Well I think you said it perfectly, ‘we have to create a solution from the top to the bottom.’ So let’s begin at the top. Let’s begin with the root cause of the problem at the top and effect a regime change and then build those structures that need to be in a position to negotiate. The Syrian people’s will has been demonstrated for every day for more than four years. The will of the people has been demonstrated in cities that no longer exist because they have been obliterated by the Assad regime.
Adnan Oktar: Assad would want Turkey to intervene militarily. That is something that can be sorted out when it enters the agenda. But let me make it clear what I want.
Syrian intellectuals must make a decision on this. Do they, or do they not, want Turkey to intervene as a guarantor? Let us do away with the borders, meaning let us abolish visa and passport requirements between Syria and Turkey. Intellectuals must accept a Turkish intervention as legitimate and legal. Assad will want it, because he is terrified. But we will not hand Assad over to be hanged. We will allow him to establish a statelet and go there. If the international courts want to try him, let it be there. There are international war crimes tribunals and they can apply to have him and other people tried there. But, we can not let them to be hanged; this is out of question. If necessary, the international court can sentence them to life imprisonment. I am not against this. Yet, it is out of question for us to accept them to be hanged or executed by gunfire or be lynched. So, in such a case, Assad will accept Turkish intervention. When Assad's regime accepts Turkey, there will be no obstacle for the military to enter into Syria and this is definitely suitable under international law. This is something that will take only about a week .
This is an obligatory condition; the Syrian people will definitely accept Turkish army. They will not accept the Russian Army as it may start another big war. The Russian Army will not be welcomed in any way in Syria, it is not possible. The Syrian people will welcome the Turkish Army with joy and applaud them. They know that they are also Muslim people and the behavior of the army will be compassionate towards them. They will not expect them to make new troubles. Assad will also demand this kind of army. Let’s give Assad a small state to rule around Latakia. It is unacceptable to execute him and his followers. They all can be judged in the international courts. Also an agreement can be concluded with NATO as well, although there is no need. If Syria wants us, we just enter the country and nobody can object to this. There will be no tension indeed. ISIS and also other terror organisations will also withdraw in this case.
Syria needs a military and it cannot form such a military now. Syria is in need of a strong military power. It needs the strong military of Turkey. Also Syria cannot restore its economical condition without Turkey. Turkey respects Syria's internal and foreign affairs. Syria will be totally independent in these issues but there must be a federated state to be built between Turkey and Syria to ensure protection should Syria face any attack. Turkey will ensure this and this is appropriate in terms of international law. None of the other countries can attack Syria in this way. As it is a federation, their lands are counted as belonging to Turkey.
Rafif Jouejati: I am sure Turkey has a might army and I am sure Turkey would very generously help preserve peace in Syria. I think the first priority now is to restore peace to Syria to put an end to killings and I think this requires the removal of Bashar al-Assad.
Adnan Oktar: We can give a small state to Assad, his family, the people of his regime. It is out of question to execute these people. The public cannot make a healthy decision on their own as they are being killed. We cannot just ask their ideas. After Turkey’s intervention, we can ask for the public to reveal their opinions. The intellectuals of Syria must make a decision. The people are exposed to bombings, they are under fire, being killed. How can we ask these people to have a referendum, how can we put a ballot box in front of them and ask these people to reveal their own ideas? There are intellectuals of Syria. These intellectuals are in Turkey, in the United States. These intellectuals of Syria are everywhere. Syria has formed an opposition; there are hundreds of intellectuals. If they agree with this solution, then the public will accept this too.
Rafif Jouejati: Yes, certainly for those intellectuals who are not yet killed, certainly they can speak. For those who are exiled, who has been exiled because they are afraid to speak or because they can’t return home, certainly they have an opinion. So if you can convene a meeting of Syrian intellectuals and assure them of their safety, perhaps you can make this suggestion to them and see what they think. My time is devoted to the Syrian revolution. Maybe we can hear from you your perspective on the responsibility to protect civilians.
Adnan Oktar: The civilians will be protected in this way. The Turkish Army will fights those who harm them. There is no other way. If we intervene without receiving the permission of the Syrian regime, this will be considered as an offense, meaning a mutual declaration of war. If they give permission to the Turkish Army to intervene, then this operation will be a legal and humane approach. After the Turkish Army enters Syria then we can easily establish democracy. Otherwise, it's like reading a poem to somebody who is already dying. There is an environment of war, full of bloodshed in Syria now; this is not an environment for us to practice democracy. Our friends from Israel are in touch with the opposition; they are constantly having talks with them. We cannot also put Israel aside here as the power of Israel is more than the estimations. But keep in mind that both Israel and Turkey are approaching Syria in a friendly way. Nobody has eyes for Syrian land.
Rafif Jouejati: What I am simply suggesting is that this is the type of subject that is left to those parties that will be negotiating the future of Syria. It may be you, but it is certainly not me.
Adnan Oktar: Right now, salvation is important for the Syrian people. And for salvation, a sudden and unexpected move is necessary. The politicians need to make a decision. Surely, the United States and Russia will support a system that leads to a bond between Turkey and Syria. Nobody is satisfied with all the bloodshed. A transition government is out of question now. Surely a strong and reasonable government needs to be established to allow a coalition of political parties to be formed and bring democracy. There should be organisation first and then we can talk about democracy and law. At the moment everthing is in disorder and the clear solution is to provide this bond between Turkey and Syria. In such a case, Syria will have an army and no other country will dare to attack Syria: Besides in such a case Syria recovers quickly in economic terms. So Syria will be independent both in internal affairs and foreign affairs. There is nothing that is out of countenance for Syria. However it is definitely unthinkable to execute Assad and his regime. Let them form a small state around Latakia. Then the Syrian people should apply to the international courts to allow them to be punished. The international courts will act accordingly and take Assad and his followers to be judged. But it is not appropriate to take this action right now.
The Turkish President’s stance on this matter has changed in one week. This is not something where the Turkish government would make a decision alone. The Turkish government is not solely responsible for saving Syria: Governments throughout the world have the responsibility. There are also other powers above these governments; you should also take this into account.
Rafif Jouejati: I think it is really divine powers that are going to fix Syria in the near term. Worldly powers, yes certainly they have their influence, I have no doubt. Well, insha’Allah they will make the right decisions and they will support the Syrian people’s desires for freedom and democracy and dignity.
Adnan Oktar: If there were a wise woman like you governing in Syria, the problems would be solved. Women should be in charge in Syria. Syrian women should come to the forefront.
Rafif Jouejati: Bravo, power to the women, thank you.
Rafif Jouejati:: Well, a big part of our work is to strive for full equality of Syrians not only based on gender, but on political and religious affiliation and ethnic background. So hopefully over time we will achieve this state.
Adnan Oktar: Please let us hear from the gentleman also.
Matthew: I think my colleagues have covered it quite well. I think it is a bit premature to talk about Turkish involvement with troops on the ground in Syria, but I think Turkey is key to be politically involved in a solution in Syria.
Adnan Oktar: This must be done as soon as possible. Otherwise, there will not be any people left alive in Syria. Please think Turkish army as a savior like UN. Turkey will not be an invader.
Matthew: Yes,but is that how will the Syrian people see it? You know if the Turkish troops are coming in with permission from Bashar al-Assad and the Turkish government, will the Syrian people see this as the invasion of Turks or will they see it as a peace-keeping force?
Adnan Oktar: The Syrian people will welcome the Turkish Army with great applause, and cry with joy
Matthew: How do we know?
Adnan Oktar: Since the Turkish people and the Syrian people love each other. Both of them are Muslims. The Turkish Army will come to save them and people always love their saviors. The Turkish Army will come to save them from being bombed and killed.
Rafif Jouejati: Has the Turkish government given any indication that it is ready to go to bring salvation to the Syrian people and protect Bashar al-Assad?
Adnan Oktar: The Turkish government cannot make a unilateral decision. Also, the Turkish government is not in a position to undertake the salvation of Syria on its own. Of course, Turkey should get the support of other countries and the powers above them.
Rafif Jouejati: Well, we hope for peace.
Adnan Oktar: This will come true under your pioneership. Your contribution is important.
Rafif Jouejati: Yes, absolutely thank you for the opportunity to meet you and speak with you.
Adnan Oktar: Let’s keep in close touch. I can introduce you to my friends, I believe this will be fruitful.
Rafif Jouejati: Yes thank you, I am delighted.
Adnan Oktar: They will be very helpful. Let us finish our program for today.
May Allah Who dominates everything help us. Nothing will happen outside of His plan.
Rafif Jouejati: Amin